RESPONSE TO A BLOG POSTING THAT IS TRYING TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE ON THE MERITS OF MINIATURE GOLF
PLEASE NOTE THAT BLUE WRITING IS QUOTED FROM THE BLOG ARTICLE IN QUESTION WHILE RED IS A RESPONSE.
Posters on other blogs are wasting no time in turning discussions about what to do with the Liberty Center bocce courts into a slanted debate about me instead of about the issue.
This is the way that you have always operated. Trying to discredit all the other bloggers that do not agree with you. Notice that the Berman name or name of the Blog is never mentioned. Maybe this is guilt by association.
Those who could stand a little educating need to know that I am following a process laid out in written SCA documents that describes how any interested party, including individual residents, can submit a proposal for an item or project to the Properties & Grounds Committee, after which the committee will decide whether or not to look into the feasibility of the proposal.
The board and the committee should have general feelings of the residents. Most residents do not express their opinions but go with the flow. Some bloggers would rather try to influence the residents rather than allow them to form their own opinions. Some bloggers feel that by trashing the opposing viewpoint and the authors of those viewpoints, they can influence the outcome of events. Those that read blogs may be only a minority of the community and therefore not a real representative sample of the whole.
Anyone who wants to see the Liberty Center site put to a different use than the one I advocate is welcome to follow the same process.
That is exactly what is happening with the blogs currently but this one controversial blog does not like competition and therefore is discourteous to the opposing viewpoint. This other blog feels by trashing other authors, his viewpoint is stronger.
By being open and transparent about my efforts, there will be no secrets.
Open and transparent should be observed and not spewed and defended. If all blogs were open and transparent, all readers would be less influenced by the stroke of the pen but rather influenced by facts.
This started with a blog survey that indicated 68 percent of the respondents prefer miniature golf at that site, which I believe helps to lay a foundation for putting the suggestion into the formal review process.
Once again, making numbers support you viewpoint is insulting. This blogger has insulted the intelligence of the community by using such a small sample that valid conclusion cannot be drawn. A sample should be representative of the whole. If you sample only the followers of one blog, you discredit the sample.
Others with alternative suggestions can and should do the same.
This is the reason that one blogger is so frustrated. Alternatives have been offered and that do not coincide with the others bloggers suggestions so he goes on the attack against other blog authors.
In the coming weeks, I hope to do all I can to obtain community support.
Why? Is he trying to influence the outcome of the proposal)
I will meet with any groups or individuals
(Who appointed this blogger the commander and chief of the project? )
who want to see the impressive materials I have collected,
(materials that he collected? Again who appointed him? If the materials are so impressive why not post them to any of the blogs for everyone to see)
and I will see that the P&G Committee is provided
(is it the bloggers role to provide as many resources as possible to influence the committee)
with as many resources as possible if and when it decides to consider the mini-golf proposal.
Notice the other blogger is again TRYING TO INFLUENCE the outcome of the miniature golf proposed project.
This will not be David Berman’s proposal alone.
(Shall we just call this someone else’s proposal that he can score a win for his opinions)
If parties of interest do not think it will work, then I’m sure we’ll find that out along the way.
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(GET READY, HERE GOES ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST A GREAT ADVOCATE OF SCA)
A SCA resident has published an article on the Rana Goodman forum suggesting the use of the Liberty Center Bocce Courts for shuffleboard rather than for a pet park or a miniature golf layout.
There is no doubt that installing shuffleboard would be considerably less expensive than putting in a mini-golf layout.
His position helps to explain why he did not respond to the private offer I made to show him the results of my mini-golf research to date. I think he does not want to risk having his mind changed.
(FALSE. The unique thing about his exposing decisions is that he offers sensible alternatives. He offers solutions and not controversial problems. Also, this blogger has made it a point of ATTACKING him as often as possible. It is ironic that this blogger wants the support of an arch enemy that he has created for the purpose of getting his point across.
Meanwhile, I am showing the materials to many people who have at least expressed curiosity for the concept;
(Yes sticking his nose in where it does not belong)
this is part of the earliest stages of building community support,
(Not community support but support of the followers of one particular blog)
something the committees will want to see.
I make the same offer to Rana Goodman, who expressed some initial support for the concept of mini-golf at Liberty Center.
As is often the case, much of the argument is couched in a philosophy of “going cheap” rather than investing in potentially desirable amenities, despite the fact that he was an advocate of spending tens of thousands of dollars to expand the woodshop into the Independence Center Courtyard to benefit only the members of the Woodchips Club, of which he is a member (a position on which I did not form an opinion).
( EXCUSE me Mr. Blogger, I have not seen any proposals that the community fund the project for Woodchips Charter Club that anyone in the community can join and take advantage of. Currently there are many active Woodchip members and the club has had to expand the hours to be open due to a great demand for the facilities. Greater facilities are needed to accommodate the current and future members. This is based on demand rather than projection of what might be.)
Since he understands the vetting process that committees go through when new projects are proposed, I would assume he will submit the necessary paperwork to propose his Liberty Center solution, after which the committees, supported by the court of public opinion, can do their work as spelled out in their guidelines.
He cited an article by blogger Ron Johnson as evidence that the mini-golf layout at Sun City Summerlin does not get a lot of use, but I saw no data from either Mr. Fetherolf or Mr. Johnson regarding use of the shuffleboard courts at Sun City Summerlin.
( Mr. Blogger, rather than just criticize other bloggers, why not openly publicize the facts that Mr. Johnson cites? Are we afraid to openly discuss facts but rather projecting opinions?
Please remember the old saying that there is none so blind as he who will not see.
( And now for my personal opinion. I would love a Miniature golf course at the Liberty Center. After all, I have 4 beautiful grandchildren and some day, they will want to play and this will be an attraction. The oldest should be ready in about 3 years. Since she does not live in Nevada, maybe we can arrange a visit for the family so we can play together.
I do appreciate that all the residents of Sun City Anthem will help pay for this for my granddaughter. She and I do appreciate your generocity. And I appreciate that you will keep this facility up to date for the few years until she gets here.
As a golfer, I observe many of the older golfers having some difficulty physically bending down to pick up the balls that we all putt. Since I am so fortunate to have my health, I often assist others in my foursome in retrieving balls from the hole. Maybe we could acquire the technology to have an automatic ball retriever installed to help this senior community. OK, enough. With the hot summers and limited audience, maybe alternatives to miniature golf should be investigated.)
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Based on the research done to date
(is this a valid sample?)
Here are some questions and answers that readers may find informative about the possibilities for installing miniature golf at Liberty Center. Some of these are based on specific questions residents have asked me.
You are welcome to ask your own questions, by way of the blog’s comment feature, and I’ll try to answer them for you.
(the assumption is that you are qualified to answer. Remember assume is ASS U ME)
Keep in mind that this material is for informational purposes only, as the appropriate committees, specifically Properties & Grounds, Finance and Lifestyle, will be part of a formal review process that will culminate in a recommendation to the SCA Board of Directors to either go forward with the project or deny it.
(It is so nice of this blogger to allow the appropriate committes to be involved)
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What exact space are we talking about?
We are talking about two sets of bocce courts at Liberty Center. There are eight courts in total, divided into two sections of four courts each, with the two sections separated by a ramp leading up to three tennis courts.
What are the dimensions of the bocce courts?
Another resident took measurements and came up with between 10,000 and 11,000 square feet combined between the two areas, but another expert in construction management estimates possibly about 15,000 square feet. The difference is accounted for by not knowing how much space would be unusable due to issues related to drainage and topography.
( So once again, your not being qualified to measure has given false information. Is this a pattern?)
Would we need both bocce sections for mini-golf, or could we put it in one section and use the other side for a different recreational amenity?
In order to provide a layout that is enjoyable and offers a complete experience, it would be extremely difficult to confine mini-golf to only one side. As it is, a layout that provides for 18 holes of mini-golf would be difficult to engineer even into the two sides combined, as it would cut down on the opportunities to add attractive landscaping, benches, etc. In addition, I think
(you think? Do you have any qualifications in space planning of amenities?)
employing both sides for a single use would allow for the design of an amenity that offers a unified look and a greater degree of attractiveness.
Are you saying, then, that we should have an 18-hole mini-golf course at the site?
It is possible, but it would not be the approach I would recommend. The more holes you have and the shorter the length of the putting surface, the more such courses appeal primarily to children and the less challenging they are. The experts I’ve consulted with so far say that the current trend is for longer holes that, even when built with obstacles to negotiate, emphasize putting skills and are more suitable for adults, though in our case visiting grandchildren as young as seven or eight would find it enjoyable.
( Mr. Blogger, who did you consult? Were this designers or experts that can give you trends?)
I would think more along the lines of 9 holes between the two areas.
( Sorry but I do not care what you think. Are you trying to influence others with your opinion? )
But since the division of golf experiences into 9 holes and 18 holes is not something we’d have to adhere to, a 10-hole layout might be something to consider.
(Excuse me Mr. Blogger. As a current golfer, I have never experienced a 10 hole layout for any type of golf. Real golfers will not practice on a miniature golf facility. The real golfers prefer real grass surfaces to practice, which is why almost all golf courses offer practice greens.
Can we undertake this project with our own Sun City Anthem talent and resources?
Anything is possible, and there ARE parts of the project that our Association can do, but I certainly wouldn’t recommend trying to design and build it. At the very beginning of my research, I discovered that there are many companies whose business is solely or substantially the design and construction of miniature golf courses. The best of them have been in business many years and in some cases have built more than 200 courses. They have trained designers on staff and they all use CAD/CAM software to quickly and efficiently design courses, including all necessary plans and drawings, and then they build them in periods that usually range from one to three weeks. During the course of moving this proposal forward over the coming months, I will be showing examples of what these companies are able to do.
(Mr Blogger, are you assuming that this project moves forward? Are you employed by these companies? Since when should a blogger be responsible for showing examples, shouldn’t our committees and board request that these professional companies do their own marketing to try to secure a contract if the committee and board elect to do so. Mr. Blogger, why not stick to writing your blog rather than being the know it all that you are trying to be.
In that case, what role do you think the Association would play in the process of creating a mini-golf facility.
First, we would have to give the bidders, and ultimately the selected contractor, our vision of what the layout should look like with regard to the playing challenges and the general look of the site. We would probably have to demolish the bocce courts and completely level the site for construction so that we don’t have to pay the contractor to do it. We would want to come up with a general landscaping and irrigation plan and determine whether we would use our own landscaping services to install the landscaping, though many contractors include landscape design in their finished plans. The rest would be up to the parties to determine.
( AGAIN, MR BLOGGER, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY WE? ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO COME UP WITH A LANDSCAPING PLAN, ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO DETERMINE AN IRRIGATION PLAN, ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO EVEN UNDERSTAND THE LIST OF WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.)
One of the companies spoken with offers a “Help-U-Build” program outlining the portions of a project that the client can save money on by doing them in-house and the portions that the course builder really needs to do.
Some contractors in this business will provide a design plan independent of a contract to construct the facility. This can be inexpensive, in the range of $2,000 to $4,000, and some will even do it for free in the hopes of winning the contract.
OK, then how much to completely do the entire project?
It’s way too early to say. Ours would be a “budget” project because it would not be a commercial facility designed to attract paying customers and make a profit for its owners.
( Mr. blogger, you seem to have done years of research in a very short time and met with so many companies. You are so impressive.)
I am certain we would not need any of the water features
(you are certain?)
such as streams and waterfalls that are popular today, nor would we need any elaborate course structures, all of which price commercial 18-hole facilities in a range of $300,00 to more than $1 million. It’s only an educated guess
(lets call a spade a spade, YOU HAVE AN UNEDUCATED GUESS)
at this point based on conversations I have had, but I would think $100,000 or less might place us in the ballpark.
That’s still a lot of money, isn’t it?
Yes, in absolute terms, it certainly is, but here is what you should keep in mind: Employing the dormant recreation space at Liberty Center for a new amenity involves an area larger than any other SCA project I can think of. If it is done “on the cheap,” we’ll get something cheap. If it’s done to our high quality standards and produces a finished product that any segment of our community can use, then some would call it a bargain.
By comparison, we’re soon going to be told, I believe, that it will cost about $60,000 - $65,000 to construct vestibule doors at two entrances to Anthem Center in order to deal with drafts entering the building during cold weather.
Keep in mind, too, that the cost of both projects mentioned above, including mini-golf, will come from the Asset Enhancement Fee collected on the sale of SCA homes, so such construction WILL NOT cause our dues to rise.
( Once again excuse me! Any money spent is SCA is real money. Asset Enhancement FEES spent for any project will then not be available for other projects or expenses. BY USING ASSET ENHANCEMENT FEES FOR ANY PROJECT ULTIMATELY HAS AN EFFECT ON OUR DUES!
It’s pretty hot in the summer, and we don’t see too many people engaged in outdoor sports during these hot days. Doesn’t that mean the mini-golf course will be little used?
Very few of our outdoor recreational areas, such as tennis, pickle ball, etc., receive much use during hot days. Mini-golf possibly would see more use than other daytime activities because it doesn’t require any physical strain to play it.
( If you ever saw Bocce Ball being played, you would not say that)
But the golf course would also be lighted for night play, and we won’t have to spend money to provide the necessary overhead lighting because that lighting is already in place, as indicated by these photos taken at the bocce courts several nights ago:
( ALERT, YOU ARE FINALLY CORRECT ON A FACT.)
How do we know whether, after a large expenditure, the mini-golf course would be used much at all.
We don’t know for sure at this point, but there are reasons to believe it would be a popular amenity. One reason is that it can be used by almost any person of any age, including our visitors, as well as many of our disabled residents who are currently limited in the activities they can enjoy.
In addition, although a limited-participation survey conducted on my unofficial blog should not be construed as absolutely definitive, I believe it is instructive that 68% of the respondents expressed a preference for miniature golf at this site.
(Mr. Blogger, this is worthless as the audience for this survey was your followers and the folks that read your biased blog. If you were to do a survey that has any credibility, it would have to be un-slanted. This is like seeing who will be our next president by polling respondents of one political party. NOT CREDIBLE)
I have also learned that in some communities, tournament and league play is available, and this is something I would look forward to exploring here, along with status for a chartered club if feasible.
Let’s assume I’m a resident of one of the villages closest to Liberty Center. Convince me that this is the best use of the bocce-court area.
It is important for nearby residents to be supportive of any proposal for conversion of the bocce courts, and I look forward to doing all I can to inform the area residents of this proposal and seek their support.
(So you have an agenda!)
Residents of the area can oppose one project or another, but it is important for them to know that their opinions IN FAVOR of something could carry a lot of weight.
What I’m suggesting is: a brand-new activity; one that is accessible by virtually all SCA residents for their enjoyment; a project that will be attractively designed so that it is pleasant to look at and visit; an amenity that is relatively free of noise, except perhaps for exclamations of joy when a hole-in-one is made.
(COMMENTS IN RED WERE MADE BY AN ANNONOMOUS PERSON FOR THE PURPOSE OF REACTING TO THE SLANTED BLOG ARTICLE PUBLISHED ON ONE COMMUNITY BLOG. WHY ANNONOMOUS? I JUST HAD TO GET THIS OFF MY CHEST AND BY GIVING MY IDENTITY, I WOULD JUST BE ANOTHER TARGET OF THE BLOGGER IN QUESTION)
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We at Anthem Opinions, felt this correspondence should be published in its entirety because the rebuttals are so complete and comprehensive.
Though the anonymous writer does not wish to engage with any personal discussion, we DO.
Let us hear your thoughts.
